This post really resonated with me! At UCBTNY, Paris Adkins and I co-host a monthly experimental improv show called The Assignment where we invent new forms each month. We explain the show as an ASP except instead of rehearsing for 8 weeks, we email a complicated outline. The goal of the show is to tinker with structure and mechanics to push performers into newer, riskier territory. We've found focusing on innovative forms can pull people out of the technique/micro mindset.
Our forms have been a mix of high risk, high reward long form (Unfinished Business: a LaRonde in purgatory playing with the concept of eternal return) and more crowd friendly medium-form ideas (Song of the Summer: like Gravid Water but straight performers can only speak in song lyrics from gay anthems). If you're ever back in NY or want to test a show idea, let us know!
> the difference between premise and game, the difference between heightening and exploring, list scenes, mapping scenes, weird worlds.
Where can I learn more about this stuff? I'm not really sure I understand the difference between premise and game and the difference between heightening and exploring. And I haven't encountered the last 3 ideas clearly explained anywhere.
Can someone please explain these things to me, or tell me where I can learn about them?
You've commented several times, asking for more examples, exercises and definitions of things that have to do with game and premise and the comedy of the scene. I think there ISN'T as much documentation of these things as you want. A lot of it is just coaches/teachers doing their best to characterize the improv scenes they feel. Have you taken a UCB class? Or maybe just reading their manual? They are really the only ones who go into the things you're curious about. That's my instinct. And it might be a sketch writing class that you want! That's really where people dive into "what's your idea? How do we present it? How do we explore it?" What have you found so far that has answered your questions?
I just re-read my comment here and I'm worried it sounds annoyed! I'm not annoyed. I'm just trying to be helpful. When I say "you've commented several times" --- that is of course totally all right that you've commented several times about stuff! Tone in comments is tough, my apologies.
Yeah, I've read UCB manual a couple of times, it was extremely helpful, but it doesn't explain some of the concepts precisely enough, so I ended up a bit confused. I've taken two UCB classes, they were also very helpful, I'm starting a third one in a couple of weeks. I've taken UCB sketch class, but didn't get as much out of it as I was hoping to (it didn't clarify the things I'm confused about).
The most helpful resources I found so far are UCB manual, "Improv Beat by Beat" podcast, your posts, "Chuffah" substack (blog about UCB-style sketches written by Mike Trapp from CollegeHumor), UCB classes, and /r/improv subreddit.
The thing is, I'm really passionate and curious about comedy, but I have no talent/"instinct" for it. So I'm trying to get better at it by practicing and analyzing things, and asking all these questions because I'm trying to understand how talented/creative people think, so I can get better at it as well. And comments here seem like a great opportunity to ask an experienced teacher (I hope to take your class one day, but they're always sold out so quickly 🙂).
I think that getting more precise definitions and examples of the "game" and the "premise" will help me figure out what happens in the heads of the talented people when they come up with funny scene ideas, so I can do that as well.
And I guess I'm hoping that my questions may inspire some future blog post ideas (that would be super helpful to me, and, I'm sure, many other people as well).
I couldn’t agree more on watching the ceiling be lowered. The current, common improv style is an eighth grade five-paragraph essay: it’s efficient and effective, but once you see the structure it becomes impossible to ignore.
Worse, if we’re all writing a five-paragraph essay, what rises to the top are the clever ideas within the structure. We’re following and rewarding the clever, and not the innovative. Funny is rewarded above the real.
Funny is fine, and holds audiences, but if that’s our goal, why why waste our time with Harolds and longform at all? If I have 20 minutes and need to guarantee a laugh, three shortform games will get me there even more effectively.
I’m not advocating for that at all, but we’ve lowered the ceiling in order to guarantee outcomes we already had.
I realize I'm trying to have it both ways with what I'm about to say: but discovering what the improv equivalent of a five-paragraph essay has been remarkable. Without it, all we had was unstructured free verse, mostly written by eighth graders. So I respect the five paragraph essay and its power. But there needs to be a systematic way to make more.
Oh, I agree. The issue isn’t that the five-paragraph essay exists. The problem is that we have high school seniors worried about perfecting their five-paragraph essays.
One of the drawbacks of having your entire improv world revolve around UCB is that you are cloistered away from indie shows and smaller theaters where really interesting stuff is going on. It's simply not on your radar and so you assume it doesn't exist.
Part of 'raising the improv ceiling' is in getting the greater improv community out of this 'school supremacy' mindset. If everything is geared towards elevating yourself through the pyramid of Groundlings or UCB, then you are absolutely not looking for transgressive, new forms of play. You're looking for something safe that will land you a frontline Harold or sketch team, and eventually on TV.
So, yes, there is experimental, unusually grounded, less chatty improv going on in LA. It's right under your nose, and you can't smell it.
Have you been to the Fanatic Salon in Culver City? Jeff Michalski and Jane Morris are doing some wonderful things -- also some old IO/ Second City refugee teams have landed there.
My own theater is short form - but we're working behind the scenes to put on some improvised plays and other very anti-Harold things.
I would also point to the grizzled veterans who put on shows at venues like the Lyric Hyperion and Glendale room.
So much is out there that isn't on Franklin or Sunset.
For consideration under the macro topics of "improv shows that can go for a long time" and "improv shows that can be magic," I'd like to suggest Duo It Again at The Lyric Hyperion (second Tuesdays at 7:30pm) if you haven't had a chance to check it out. Next show is September 22nd.
A self-described "psychedelic telephone/fever dream/surrealist layer cake," host duo FernGully starts the show with a two-minute base scene that the ensuing 20+ duos will all replay over and over again in their own style/flair/school/genre/you-name-it.
A lot of fun witnessing all the wildly varied offshoots from a single seed. Big, welcoming energy and community -- before, during, and after the show. For reference, here's the Instagram flyer from the most recent edition > https://www.instagram.com/p/C-lbseaScGv/
Question: it’s a bad equivalency for a number of reasons - but if improv was music - and long form was at first Jazz - how far have we come - are we past the Blues and Elvis - are we up to late era Beatles - or are we already all the way to too many genres to define and very hard to find a new playground?
If the focus it mirco, is there space to play with what each improviser believes is funny? Just like bending music genres you can bind types of humor styles. Having that free form space/wing to try and fail is the idea time to put this very loose thought into practice.
This post really resonated with me! At UCBTNY, Paris Adkins and I co-host a monthly experimental improv show called The Assignment where we invent new forms each month. We explain the show as an ASP except instead of rehearsing for 8 weeks, we email a complicated outline. The goal of the show is to tinker with structure and mechanics to push performers into newer, riskier territory. We've found focusing on innovative forms can pull people out of the technique/micro mindset.
Our forms have been a mix of high risk, high reward long form (Unfinished Business: a LaRonde in purgatory playing with the concept of eternal return) and more crowd friendly medium-form ideas (Song of the Summer: like Gravid Water but straight performers can only speak in song lyrics from gay anthems). If you're ever back in NY or want to test a show idea, let us know!
Into this- big time.
Would love to see more vets rehearsing and pursuing better shows, honing their craft. How could one claim to love improv and NOT do that?
Still waiting for that High Functioning livestream!
We're doing one on the last Saturday of August. It'll be posted soon and I'll let you know.
> the difference between premise and game, the difference between heightening and exploring, list scenes, mapping scenes, weird worlds.
Where can I learn more about this stuff? I'm not really sure I understand the difference between premise and game and the difference between heightening and exploring. And I haven't encountered the last 3 ideas clearly explained anywhere.
Can someone please explain these things to me, or tell me where I can learn about them?
You've commented several times, asking for more examples, exercises and definitions of things that have to do with game and premise and the comedy of the scene. I think there ISN'T as much documentation of these things as you want. A lot of it is just coaches/teachers doing their best to characterize the improv scenes they feel. Have you taken a UCB class? Or maybe just reading their manual? They are really the only ones who go into the things you're curious about. That's my instinct. And it might be a sketch writing class that you want! That's really where people dive into "what's your idea? How do we present it? How do we explore it?" What have you found so far that has answered your questions?
I just re-read my comment here and I'm worried it sounds annoyed! I'm not annoyed. I'm just trying to be helpful. When I say "you've commented several times" --- that is of course totally all right that you've commented several times about stuff! Tone in comments is tough, my apologies.
No worries!
Yeah, I've read UCB manual a couple of times, it was extremely helpful, but it doesn't explain some of the concepts precisely enough, so I ended up a bit confused. I've taken two UCB classes, they were also very helpful, I'm starting a third one in a couple of weeks. I've taken UCB sketch class, but didn't get as much out of it as I was hoping to (it didn't clarify the things I'm confused about).
The most helpful resources I found so far are UCB manual, "Improv Beat by Beat" podcast, your posts, "Chuffah" substack (blog about UCB-style sketches written by Mike Trapp from CollegeHumor), UCB classes, and /r/improv subreddit.
The thing is, I'm really passionate and curious about comedy, but I have no talent/"instinct" for it. So I'm trying to get better at it by practicing and analyzing things, and asking all these questions because I'm trying to understand how talented/creative people think, so I can get better at it as well. And comments here seem like a great opportunity to ask an experienced teacher (I hope to take your class one day, but they're always sold out so quickly 🙂).
I think that getting more precise definitions and examples of the "game" and the "premise" will help me figure out what happens in the heads of the talented people when they come up with funny scene ideas, so I can do that as well.
And I guess I'm hoping that my questions may inspire some future blog post ideas (that would be super helpful to me, and, I'm sure, many other people as well).
There are some very helpful explanations of the difference between premise and game on this Reddit post https://www.reddit.com/r/improv/comments/1eqjhe7/how_would_you_define_premise_vs_game/
I couldn’t agree more on watching the ceiling be lowered. The current, common improv style is an eighth grade five-paragraph essay: it’s efficient and effective, but once you see the structure it becomes impossible to ignore.
Worse, if we’re all writing a five-paragraph essay, what rises to the top are the clever ideas within the structure. We’re following and rewarding the clever, and not the innovative. Funny is rewarded above the real.
Funny is fine, and holds audiences, but if that’s our goal, why why waste our time with Harolds and longform at all? If I have 20 minutes and need to guarantee a laugh, three shortform games will get me there even more effectively.
I’m not advocating for that at all, but we’ve lowered the ceiling in order to guarantee outcomes we already had.
I realize I'm trying to have it both ways with what I'm about to say: but discovering what the improv equivalent of a five-paragraph essay has been remarkable. Without it, all we had was unstructured free verse, mostly written by eighth graders. So I respect the five paragraph essay and its power. But there needs to be a systematic way to make more.
Oh, I agree. The issue isn’t that the five-paragraph essay exists. The problem is that we have high school seniors worried about perfecting their five-paragraph essays.
I adore that these discussions are happening
One of the drawbacks of having your entire improv world revolve around UCB is that you are cloistered away from indie shows and smaller theaters where really interesting stuff is going on. It's simply not on your radar and so you assume it doesn't exist.
Part of 'raising the improv ceiling' is in getting the greater improv community out of this 'school supremacy' mindset. If everything is geared towards elevating yourself through the pyramid of Groundlings or UCB, then you are absolutely not looking for transgressive, new forms of play. You're looking for something safe that will land you a frontline Harold or sketch team, and eventually on TV.
So, yes, there is experimental, unusually grounded, less chatty improv going on in LA. It's right under your nose, and you can't smell it.
- RG
Ok, I’m listening. What shows are you thinking of that I’m missing ?
Have you been to the Fanatic Salon in Culver City? Jeff Michalski and Jane Morris are doing some wonderful things -- also some old IO/ Second City refugee teams have landed there.
My own theater is short form - but we're working behind the scenes to put on some improvised plays and other very anti-Harold things.
I would also point to the grizzled veterans who put on shows at venues like the Lyric Hyperion and Glendale room.
So much is out there that isn't on Franklin or Sunset.
Here! Here !
For consideration under the macro topics of "improv shows that can go for a long time" and "improv shows that can be magic," I'd like to suggest Duo It Again at The Lyric Hyperion (second Tuesdays at 7:30pm) if you haven't had a chance to check it out. Next show is September 22nd.
A self-described "psychedelic telephone/fever dream/surrealist layer cake," host duo FernGully starts the show with a two-minute base scene that the ensuing 20+ duos will all replay over and over again in their own style/flair/school/genre/you-name-it.
A lot of fun witnessing all the wildly varied offshoots from a single seed. Big, welcoming energy and community -- before, during, and after the show. For reference, here's the Instagram flyer from the most recent edition > https://www.instagram.com/p/C-lbseaScGv/
Thank you, Wendy!
Question: it’s a bad equivalency for a number of reasons - but if improv was music - and long form was at first Jazz - how far have we come - are we past the Blues and Elvis - are we up to late era Beatles - or are we already all the way to too many genres to define and very hard to find a new playground?
We are in the post Chuck Berry pre Beatles era
If the focus it mirco, is there space to play with what each improviser believes is funny? Just like bending music genres you can bind types of humor styles. Having that free form space/wing to try and fail is the idea time to put this very loose thought into practice.
I think so!